The Key Elements of Powerful Beacon Content with Nancy Duarte



Here’s the full transcript from the episode:


Introducing Nancy Duarte


Today reminds me why I am so glad that I restarted podcasting because it gives me a reason to talk to some of my favorite people in the world. Today’s guest is known as the storyteller of the valley. Nancy Duarte is CEO and author of six best selling books for over 30 years, Duarte Inc, has worked with the highest performing brands and executives in the world. The insights from these engagements get transformed into training everyone can learn from Duarte is a communication expert who has been featured in Fortune time, Forbes Fast Company, Wired Wall Street Journal, so many more. Her TED talk has had over 3 million views, we will definitely link to it in the show notes. She writes for HBr, MIT Sloan and Forbes on a regular basis and has won several awards for communications entrepreneurship and her success as a female executive. She’s ranked number 67 on the list of top 250 women and leadership and is the number one global communication guru. Her videos are baked into the online courses at Harvard. She lectures at Stanford University and her books are used at almost every top business school in the world. As a persuasion expert. She cracked the code for effectively incorporating story patterns into business communication. And she has two beloved grandsons and a granddaughter. Welcome to the widest net podcast. Nancy. You’re so you’re so amazing. It’s so good to see you. It is so good to see you too. I wanted to start with a story that I don’t know if you know. You may remember in 2015 I did research for what became my latest book, The widest net. I did a 23 city tour testing out materials. And my second stop was at your Venn Duarte headquarters, where we hosted a great group of entrepreneurs. Midway through that session, someone asked a question and to answer it, a visual popped to mind that I sketched out on the flip chart in the room. That visual became the ecosystem, well that really is the central part of the methodology in the widest net. So I like to think that the Duarte visual five



angels seep through the walls, right. But I just realized that thank you for holding that space. And it was one of my desires in the doing the unbook tour as you know, quoting Scott Stratton is like to tour before the book was written. Sometimes the ideas emerge that way. Does that ever happen to you? Yeah. Like, what happens when I’m working on a body of work is how I come up with different models or different frames of mind. And I created this deck, I don’t know, I have like 100 slides in it with all these concepts and ideas that will have a title and then some supporting bullets. And then I throw it on a wall and then invite people through. And that’s what was so interesting when I wrote resonate is the sparkline wasn’t even part of it. It was this. It was this little corner of one spread. And I invited some people over and I was walking through it. And the guy who was the speechwriter for the CEO of Apple, he goes, ” if you can get that sparkline thing, if you can actually prove that’s the thing that’s going to be like crack. And so I was like, so I flipped the whole thing. I stopped my research and focused just on solving that. And so yeah, it’s, there’s something magical when you can see the look in people’s eyes,



that your body of work is going to change them. Right? It’s no feeling like that. Yes, it just especially in the moment of that sounds like something that he saw that was just so obvious, but also where you just noticed, you might like create and share something I’m not sure if you were writing resonate, or maybe I think it was another book, I had stopped by the office one day, and I was like, So what are you doing? You’re like, well, I basically downloaded and printed the entire Internet. And I’m looking for patterns that nobody has ever seen before. What’s your maybe that was like the precursor to books. But it sounds like it is for you. It’s that dialectic of gathering ideas, getting feedback, and then beginning to see patterns. Because that is a big part of how you think your communication style is, really I find the pattern and then test the pattern. So I don’t interview people for the pattern. And most of the patterns come from our own work. So that’s the cool thing. When you work with these brands. We could look laterally across what’s on the mind of the C suite in the brand. We could say What’s everyone doing roughly around sales enablement? What’s everyone doing for their big industry talks? You know, we helped create that. But we also know when it resonates. I could use my internship there. That’s so funny. I don’t usually use that word. Funny. But yeah, so we pattern find across our own work and that’s where data story came from. Illuminated as we studied movements. So we always, we always will study and become a deep student of something and then maybe lay it across business communications in a way now



What else is ever done? I love that. For those who aren’t familiar with a sparkline from resonate, what’s your quick description of that? Yeah, so if you were to plot a presentation or a speech over time, and take all of the words, you know, and pull all of the words out over time, we actually can plot the rise and fall of tension, which a great story always has this rise and fall and rise and fall. So I knew that the greatest speeches kind of had that cadence, this kind of story cadence, but yet, it wasn’t really one single narrative. It was like, information and narrative and, and metaphor, you know, and so, I set out to figure out, what is that rise and fall? And can it be plotted over time. And so I discovered after study, I have a book called the 100 greatest speeches of all times, and I looked at those and I thought, if I can crack it, that would mean that this pattern should be able to be applied to Dr. King’s I Have a Dream speech and something like Steve Jobs, his iPhone launch speech. So once I once I found this pattern I could have, I could



research and analyze any speech that had ever been given to look to see how much of that rise and fall of tension I have. And so what the rise and fall is, is is the gap between what is what could be so I can analyze any speech and say, Are they talking about what is and then they move to what could be because if it’s a persuasive, or you’re trying to influence you’re trying to get people to long, long for this more desirable future or move them to this other place from where they currently are. And so by talking about what could be in a way that makes it unappealing, because it’s stasis, you know, anything sedentary is going to possibly rot, you know, but you have to say, here’s the current state of the union. Here’s currently what’s going on, everyone’s nodding, and you’re building consensus and credibility, because you understand the current state. And then when you introduce this potential future state, kind of takes our world off balance, and then the rest of the talk, you’re kind of reconciling. Reconciling for them, why moving to this future state is more desirable than their current state. So it’s,



that’s, it’s amazing. I mean, you, you get this to fan mail or notes from people that it changes careers, like when you create a body of work, that that, you know, gets people promoted or helps, you know, launch causes or whatever. It’s just so fun. It’s Yes, it’s definitely for me just the deepest thread around the excitement of the of the work. And it’s funny, I don’t know if I told you this, either. But after I wrote body of work, where you very graciously contributed, where I talked about that pattern. My dad had told me a story in downtown San Anselmo, where I grew up, before he had eventually been on the city council and was elected mayor actually, in 1971. But before that, somebody had written a letter to the local paper, about how the down town was kind of, you know, falling into disrepair. And my dad, like, loved his downtown. He was a photographer. So he went and took pictures of every storefront, you know, one at a time. And then he invited seven of his friends that were architects and designers, and he said, he passed out like a number of photos to each of them, and said, If you were to transform this, what would you do? So they created sketches. And then he created slides back in that day, right? And he just had open public meetings at a local school, where he basically did like, this is what is and this is what could be, and he said he could hear like the oohs and ahhs in the crowd, but it was so funny, because he told me that story, after I’d already interviewed you. And I think I was like reading him some of the sections of the book. And I was like, without even knowing Nancy Duarte, he had that pattern down that well, what it is, is that that’s how I could historically go through all the old speeches is because when people know they’ve nailed it,



they’ve usually done that. And, and that’s how I could find the pattern is because it’s there in the greatest speeches. So just your dad was just one of the greatest speech makers of all time, probably, I think he was, I think he was, well is your bio says you’re in your body of work in your book span, not just design, but storytelling, culture, building leadership. Today, I really wanted to zero in on a specific kind of content that I call beacon content. This can be a core Keynote or a manifesto, something that really clearly paints a picture about your point of view and the main message for your thought leadership. So if I were to come to you and say, you know, Nancy, I really want to create like this meaningful piece of communication that I’ll be using all year long to describe, you know, my latest book, where would you start with me in terms of advice, I love that. So I think in across all of my body of work is empathy. So I was raised by a narcissistic mother and daughters of nurses.



have cystic moms are not having modeled for them empathy. And so I don’t have a super low empathy quotient. But I’ve always felt like a void, I’ve never really understood how to be other centric. So every single body of work has some sort of model for empathy in it. And Duarte has defined empathy, not just like, oh, walk in their shoes, which is great to do, but you can’t walk in their shoes until you really understand how different the ones you’re currently walking in yourself are. So we have to find empathy for organizations, for leaders, as know yourself, understand others and adapt accordingly. So every single thing, whether you’re adapting to an audience, or adapting in a one on one, or adapting how you listen or adapting, so it’s like, ya know, yourself, understand others and adapt to them. That is



the definition of empathy. And it is the thread that you see through every single body of work that we make, and it applies eyes to everything.



Yeah, so from that, because I know having taken your amazing class, visual story



that I love so much from an instructional design perspective, but in really in, in thinking about that of having core elements of really, really thinking about your audience, as a starting point, it seems so straightforward to almost be insulting, but it actually is not so many people I work with, and I can fall into the trap of like, my book my message, how do I say it me, me, me? What are some concrete ways that you can really learn more about an audience and in a case of, let’s say, working on a core keynote that somebody might use, you know, throughout the year adapt, of course, right a little bit? What are ways that you really do Lean in and figure out what’s important to your desired audience, maybe you know, general things about them, right? They’re sea levels in an organization or marketing managers or whatever. Yeah, so a lot of like professional keynoters, speak to a broad audience, they might not be able to know exactly who it is, who exactly as in their audience, if you have a message that needs to influence, let’s say, there’s 1000 people in the room. But one of the people is the one venture capitalist who’s going to make or break your company, you need to make your talk based solely on what that person would need to hear. So you need to understand what’s on their mind. So when when we say if I speak to a company or at a company, I get the alerts of that company up to six months ahead of time, depending on how much I know, I want to know what kind of external pressure they’re under, I want to know how they’re performing. I may even ask about what core competencies they’re trying to get. What are some of the learning objectives they would like for people to walk away with from my keynote, like, that’s if you’re doing it for a company, if you know, it’s CMOS, you need to know what they read, you need to know what’s on their mind, you need to know what they’re all struggling with. So we I’ll always do a pre talk, I’ll try to really understand what it is. So first question we ask is straight out a resume is where are you trying to move them from? And where are you trying to move them to? So we asked what is their current state when they’re gonna walk in the room, and what is their state of mind and state of believing and behaving that you want them to have when they leave the room. And that’s like the audience journey. And so we define the audience journey through like a series of interviews, or through researching, if we, if they can’t tell us what it is,



when it’s an internal talk, we’ll do a listening, we’ll do like a listening exercise, or we’ll do some sort of survey. So we really understand what’s on the hearts and minds. Otherwise, you come across a tone deaf,



which can really backfire. If you don’t know really what’s on the hearts and minds of everyone in the audience. And I’ve walked this line, sometimes, especially in Silicon Valley, in the early days, I learned very early on, never pretend to be more savvy than I am, especially in front of engineers, for example, right of like trying to pretend I know more about technology, it’s more to really tune in pay attention, as you said, maybe have some individual conversations,



which is so helpful. And then in the actual structure of it part of resonate. And I know what I experienced in visual story is, and having in beginning to shape some of the core messages and thinking about the points of content that you would use you talk about having more emotional points of connection, like within stories, having data points, and then that star moments are moments. Oh, yeah. So what are those and how do they work into the structure as you’re like walking them through this transformational journey? Yeah, I love that. And you know, you mentioned engineers, as audience which is interesting to follow up with that question, because if you’re speaking to a group of engineers, you shouldn’t go like crazy about the emotional appeal of story. Like they’re going to want to be rooted and grounded more info



But if it’s a sales team, and you’re getting them all hyped up, you can go crazy awesome story, right? It’s just a matter of knowing who your audience is, and the classic rhetorical crap triangle of ethos, pathos, logos, like emotional appeal, analytical appeal, and your credibility. If you do, if you go too crazy on emotional appeal with an Atlanta analytical audience, it’ll, it’ll drop your credibility. So you need to make sure you dial it in. And it’s another kind of know your audience moment. So while you’re putting together but everyone feels I’m not saying you would use no stories with an engineering audience, the you just got to choose your stories wisely. You can use a lot of stories, but the story choice is what would happen. So once you put the whole structure together, you need to drop in things that’ll be like a cautionary tale around the current state of what is, and then stories about other people maybe who have done this amazing thing, and what is their what do they look like, and we too, can be like them. So it’s using story and planting it. And a star moment is something, it stands for something they’ll always remember. And that’s a star moment so that something in your talk is something they’ll chatter about at the I guess it’s a proverbial water cooler now, because we don’t have a real water cooler. Many have a water cooler anymore. But it’s thing you say it could be an astonishing piece of data. It could be a story, it could be doing what Bill Gates did, he released mosquitoes and talked about malaria and what it is like it’s this moment where you’re like, Oh, my God, I can’t believe they just did that. It was when Steve Jobs turned the actual iPhone on. And everyone says scrolling for the first time everyone gasped. So there’s these moments that can be embedded. They don’t have to be big dramatic things. But it should be a moment in your talk. That gives them something they’ll always remember and be able to recall.



Is there anything about the placement of that? Or is that just contextual? Based on what you know? Yeah, yeah, I’ve tried to do like the turning the iPhone on. And Steve Jobs, his talk he built up to it for almost, it’s just between a fourth and a third. He was that far through, and building and building and building and building. And that went through the hardware went through how stupid the competitors look, went through all this stuff, building of tension, and then he turned it on, and it was just, and then everyone, and then the rest of it was showing,



you know how it worked and stuff. So it all depends on where you want to frame it could be at the very end. And it could be in the beginning. Just it just depends. Yeah, when you use it, in that, as a writer, I’m, I’m really fascinated by the power of images. And I can So recognize great design as a fan. I’m just like an appreciator of everything art design. I just, I can see it and recognize it. But I feel so stuck. When it comes to knowing how to visually bring a message to life. Is there anything in all the years, you know, at Duarte, that you would be guidance for somebody like me when I’m trying to think about rules or guidelines for creating visuals that would be accompanying the great structure of a talk? Yeah, I think I think once you finish the structure, and you know,



what you want to say, I think step away and brainstorm with other people for better metaphors, better examples, maybe even a better story, something that’s visually arresting, or something where they can be like, Oh, my God, redwood tree, redwood tree drinks, the fog, we’re in a time of uncertainty and fog, let’s talk about the nature of a redwood tree, right. And it’s like, oh, that’s going to be actually the theme of our, we do a vision talk every January. And people are like, we need to bind our roots together the way a redwood tree does, and we just need to, we’ll drink the fog, we’re gonna get through this kind of thing. And so that’s a great metaphor that my creative director came up with. So I would probably have just stuck to the structure and told a couple stories. But now we have this binding agent of a redwood tree through the whole talk. So it’s those kinds of things that some people are like, Oh, we’re going to have a goal. Let’s use a bullseye image to reach a call. And it’s like, come on, what kind of a goal? Is it? Like? Is it a goal? That’s going to be a hard climb? Is that a goal? That’s going to be just a simple step? Is that a goal that’s going to where we’re going to Chris, we’re an underdog and we’re gonna go get the competition like, what are ways we can really understand where we’re heading, what we’re doing. So first of all, get a really great conceptual idea, and sometimes we’re too close to our body of work, even our beacon mark. So I gotta type him. I wish I called my thing a presentation. sparkline I just am not good at naming things. metaphor, always. It’s called like, the presentation form.



So it’s like, come on, Nancy. So like, other people started to call it as the presentation. I mean, it’s the sparkline but I was in I was deferring too much to the fact that Edward Tufte he had come up with plotting data in that



way. And so it’s like, oh, I can’t call a sparkline. Because he already named this, it’s called a sparkline. You know, I would call something a bar chart. But anyway, so I just You just kind of come up with the concept. So that’s the first thing, then is think there’s ways to turn words into pictures. Like a lot of times, if you have five points you’re making or five things you want people to remember, you could turn that into a diagram where there’s one thing in the core and five things hanging off of it, one thing to the side, and five things are shooting off of it. Like there’s so many ways to get people to see what you’re saying, instead of just cranking out bullets. And it just takes discipline, it takes also conserving enough time and your timeline to where you’re not. Yeah. So you give yourself an extra week, or two weeks or something to really run it by people will brainstorm and let people just shoot out ideas, do the Yes, and brainstorms. And then you’ll get a whole lot of ideas, or we do a quick storm, we’ll send an email out and say, Hey, I’m looking for something conceptual, conceptual, that means this, and then people will just shoot back at the company ideas around that. So



yeah, I never would have thought of that, which is why I’m so glad I’m talking to you. Because it just, I don’t know why. But there was just this very binary way of thinking like, let me first craft the message and then just find the images that match as opposed to looking specifically at ways to maybe update or change to be bringing in that visual part of the story. Because it just it is such an important part. And just for the widest net.



It’s one of these concepts. That is a very big concept, when you’re trying to imagine the ecosystem that surrounds an ideal client, there’s just all kinds of ways in my, in my dreams, your team would be like on call at all times, you know, probably J Lo’s, you know, glam team would be getting me ready for the camera and the stage. But there’s things about it, you know, where I just visualize when you think of notes, you know, as we’re putting together, let’s say the ecosystem of people and companies around your work, can imagine like all of these different, you know, kind of nodes of numbers of connections that explode, you know, almost like you see the network visualizations. And that’s been part of the, the challenge part of it, as I’m moving into the next year is really just thinking of really hiring some folks who can just understand how to visualize that type of complexity. But in that case, we’re like there is something, the journey I want the audience to make is one from just going like pulling one person at a time from the internet in the world into your business, to just visualizing recognizing that there already is this amazingly beautiful lit up network that surrounds them. And if you hit on some of these key, you know, watering holes and touch points, it’s one too many. Is that is that a comment knowing you work with so many Silicon Valley companies and people that are doing big systemic change? Like is that a different approach to how it is that you select visuals or images, or, or not? Now, you know, what came to mind when you are talking is that not that I’m into trees right now is like an aspen tree, like the spins are the largest single organ or organism, and it’s one big, it’s one thing, it’s only one thing, and it’s actually almost like a route that shoots up into a tree. And so your, your, that’s what your network is, it’s such a powerful thing. You can walk among it, you can choose it, you can see it. And you know, networks are weird in the Silicon Valley networks are weird, I think I think most of them are closed networks here. And they only let a finite amount of people in. And it wasn’t until 2006 Or so I actually found a network that welcomed me in and it was an all female network. And in a way that network has become closed. Oddly, because you only have a capacity to have, like real meaningful friendships with so many people. So it’s a C O network that I’m in that’s I mean, I can believe that these people are my friends. They’re like C level execs at public companies and stuff. But it is it is interesting. It’s not I wouldn’t I don’t see that many generous networks here in the Silicon Valley. And



it could have been it could be right. It’s hard to break in. It’s hard to break in here. I was just reading a great interview of Melanie, the gal who CEO of Canva. Yeah, she just was on the cover of Fortune and it was really I just read it on the airplane and it was all about how hard it was to get the attention of anyone here. And she had to go to like a surfing



kite sailing or something event in Maui to she heard VCs would be there. So that’s what she did. And her first funding wasn’t from the Silicon Valley they kept rejecting rejecting and rejecting her. So I don’t know what kind of network it is Pam that rejects



As people instead of connects with them, it’s one that is not based on growth and openness and innovation. I just had Guy Kawasaki on the podcast, as you know, who’s the chief evangelist for Canva. And he was saying of all the different teams he’s worked with over the decades, that the Canva team is just exceptional. So you think of that just a great idea. It’s part of the gift to me, I think of moving from the Bay Area, which I love and was my home, you know, for many generations, but in the early 90s, I feel like was a little bit different in Silicon Valley when I was working there. But part of what I love being somewhere like Mesa Arizona is really just experiencing without the pressure of having to have people perform and like hold on to their territory and feel like they have a fiefdom truly to experience what it’s like to build coalitions of people who care about their local community. And in some ways, there’s been a lot of writing about it. But I feel like the innovation that I see happening just in an approach to problem solving, and inclusive community building is not coming some so much, you know, from the coast from the centers of innovation, and who knows, there’s often like, growth, and then, you know, kind of downward cycles culturally right of like places that have been exciting, you know, expansive, that that can begin to shut down. But I, you know, we always like to think that, you know, sooner or later people are going to start coming into like, what’s happening in Mesa, Arizona, like, there’s some cool stuff that’s happening there, that really is not often having as much access to resources and having just a much more inclusive leadership. Amazing there. Yeah, it’s been really fun to see. And you wouldn’t say it, but you’re playing a real key role their in in pulling the community together and bringing innovation. So thank you. Well, it’s been fun. The main thing I always tell people, I’m the unpaid professional Busybody on the street. So in many ways, it’s just creating such a fun role of being a coach, and just having folks drop in and just being able to be available, which is not something you normally would have. That’s that’s been so much fun part.



Okay, so just to one of the last questions, a lot of folks in my community have multiple interest in sometimes have different audiences and offerings.



We can we can see something like having beacon content, if you’re known as the, you know, the communications person, but there are quite a few people who have different ideas, different parts of their body of work that they’re doing simultaneously. I’m just curious about what your point of view is, as you’re thinking about, like shaping some clear annual content, when you think about it more from a company perspective. What’s your advice for for people like that? Where they might get confused of like, should I share all of my stuff? Part of it focus on one audience? What’s What’s your take on that? That’s a really good question. No one’s ever asked me that. You know, we have certain groups of people that so what’s interesting about my body of work is in the books themselves. I’ll tell you what, and why. But my books don’t go deep enough into how and so that’s how it creates desire, say, for my courses. So we have courses, so we work on the book and the course at the same time. And what it’s kind of you open with this question. So we work on the course, and the book. And then we bring people in and say, What do you think of this part of this course, here’s the first 90 minutes. They give us feedback, feedback, feedback, then we so we do this kind of iterative cycles on the course at the same time. Well, there’s a finite, there’s finite groups of people that buy courses. And so we try to appeal to leaders in organization. And then and then our bodies of work appeal to leaders of certain disciplines, like data story appeals to the CIO. It appeals to a CMO and then a sales leader, because they’re constantly like that those data heavy roles, then illuminate appeals to leaders. But a lot of the messaging we do will maybe appeal to lnd. So we have personas that we’ve made. And I had a friend once who wrote his memoir, and it was gorgeous. It was just it was supposed to be gorgeous. But I kept being like Who exactly like if you were writing this for an audience of one who says four and it was just so completed and, and, and it didn’t do well. And it should have been



a blockbuster. So whenever I’m writing an article, or whenever I’m writing a book, I actually know the exact persona I’m writing to, and I write just to them. And so with like, with with the HBR audience, I knew who that is, I go a bit geeky or on my MIT, I go different with my Forbes article. So it’s, it’s just different. Based on who it is on LinkedIn. I put things up there that are personal and professional. It’s super, super personal, but things you know a



And then I enjoy actually being up on LinkedIn, it’s kind of fun. But it just depends. It just depends on who the audience is, and who you’re writing to do you have like an kind of an overarching idea each year as you’re going into it is it like kind of driven by the books that you’re working on in terms of just a container for the content, knowing that you have some different audiences within it. So my marketing team, my marketing team tries to come up with a content calendar. And so then I may have to interview someone or write something. And so sometimes I’m told by them, what to write. And sometimes I decide what I’m writing. So it’s really weird. I, I’ll write a body of work. And then I go, when I’m done, I go into what I call a season of rest, which does not look like rest. And you know this because it’s marketing of the book. But I’m either inventing a body of work, or I’m just not inventing any body of work, because you can’t, for me, I can’t be promoting one body of work. I don’t know. It’s like birth machine. If you’ve had kids, you give birth. And then those first two years when you have this little infant are really harder. You know? Yeah. So then, so then I noodle on models, I did a keynote, I’ve got this new body of work I’m working on. But the last three years have been so hard, just leading in, in how hard this season is. So this is going to be the longest time I’ve gone between two bodies of work. And I sample it like I wrote a tiny article, that would be just a chapter from it to see how long it would do on Forbes. And I, you know, I’m ripping bits, but nobody would see the whole body of work without seeing the model. And that sounds weird. But that’s, you know, I’m a model maker. So yeah, that was a good question. It’s, it’s nonlinear, as you would expect from me, Pam.



expected nothing less.



Well, I started with a with a little story you might not have known about I wanted to, to end with one. When I think you said I think it was 2016 or 2017. I led a retreat. It was around some of the general concepts of my book, but I led a retreat to Mexico. And I had just read your a Nancy is Santos book elute. Oh, Patti, I’m sorry, your Nancy. I was already ahead of myself in the story. So Patty, book illuminate. And it was such an amazing book in some of the structures, the ways that you described leadership, using symbols and, you know, ceremony and stories. You know, my husband is a traditional medicine person that we’re all about ceremony. I wanted you to know, we had this amazing group of women who came



and to a person. They have done the most extraordinary things. One.






ended up moving to Mexico to aka mall where we were from the United States. And she is in the process now. Now. It’s what five or six years later of creating a documentary called The Return of the Black Madonna, which is journey as a black woman, learning how to swim for the purpose of eventually scuba diving to the sunken slave ships, and the whole journey of just her personal journey, healing trauma. It had a massive, massive impact. And she and you know, she’s still living there right now working on this amazing document documentary. Yeah, we had June baya who is a grant writer who has just had the seed of the idea of really like expanding her own grant writing practice, that ended up just absolutely blooming, she’s raised now 10s of millions of dollars for the Downey School District, working with Steven Spielberg, and filmmakers and educators and all these different things Desiree Attaway created this amazing racial equity inclusion practice where she’s working with, you know, Google and Intuit and talk tip top tech companies. Nicole Lee is working on amazing things around inclusive life, this whole approach to politics, you know how to curate a well but and, and I just want to say, but it’s it speaks to the power of creating something that has a structure that can really walk people through an experience because we had the one of the exercises I think, was from the book, after people had done their vision of what they imagined their future was going to be like, we walked down to the local market artisan market and had them to something that was like a visual representation of what that was. So I remember for Kira Bolton, who’s the filmmaker, she chose this beautiful bracelet and now when I I’ll send you a link to it, so you can see it, I’ll put it in the show notes, but she has a little clip about her beautiful documentary film and she’s wearing that bracelet in the documentary. So your work has meant so much to so many people, but it really really has had deep meaning for me



And for people I love so thank you. You’re so



it’s an honor to know you and all that you do and the lives you touch Pam is just, I don’t know when, when I saw your email come through my heart was so warm just to see your face again and just get to share together some time. It just meant so much to me. I love it. And I love you. So what’s what’s next for you? What’s next and exciting? Well, other than the grandchildren?



What is next for me? So I’m trying to kind of figure some of that out. I’ve got I’ve got at least two more books in me I don’t know why say they’re in made like little ovum. So I guess I don’t have female me to say it that way. So definitely, I can see that. What’s cool is we came up with a meme about three, four years ago door shins published, because I was like, I can’t have my name on the door and keeping the central figure. And so we’ve given permission for other people at Duarte to create bodies of work. And there’s this new listening body of work that two of my PhDs actually wrote it and it changed me. Oh my god, it changed me Pam, like, it’s that whole understand how I show up. So you take a test and you understand your default listening style. And then you realize, oh, my gosh, how I show up as a default is not how other people need me to show up and listen. So it’s all about adapting, adapting how I listened to how the person on the other end wants me to listen. And it changed me so much that my son for Christmas this year gave me an hour long conversation a week just dedicated just me and him on the phone an hour a week. So every Sunday 9am fam my phone rings, sometimes that lasts two hours. And I just didn’t and then he booked his whole trip to Germany for us. And I just wouldn’t I just if I hadn’t modified How I miss him. I never would have gotten that as a gift from my he’s kind of super introverted, right? So it’d be like one of your little introverted kids do and



it just



really changed me. So that’s neat, right. So now, for me to not have the pressure of being the one to make every major body of work. It’s kind of nice. So yeah, so you’ll see more come from Duarte, but not Nancy Duarte, which is nice. I love that it’s beautiful kind of that next iteration. Well, thank you for sharing your time with us. It’s so good to see you and I appreciate everything about you. Well, it’s nice to see you too.

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