Creating Meaningful Business Relationships with Michelle Warner


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Here’s the transcript:


Welcome to another episode of the Widest Net podcast. I’m your host Pamela Slim and I’m joined today by my guest Michelle Warner. Thanks for having me. Yes, I’m so happy to have you here. Michelle is a business designer and strategist who works with growing service and creative based businesses that believe in building sustainable businesses that are driven by real relationships, intentional marketing and a desire for simplicity.        


She’s also the creator of Networking That Pays, a daily networking system that delivers quality referrals, consistent leads and strong collaborations all in five minutes a day; music to my tiny marketing action ears. Michelle, it is so lovely to have you here. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, well, I was introduced to you by our mutual friend Sarah Peck, who is the host of the great Startup Parent podcast and she recognized that we are both very passionate about relationship marketing, which is why I’m excited to talk to you.        


So how do you define relationship marketing and why do you think it’s so important and effective? Well, I define it. I think of marketing on a continuum and on one extreme is your relationship marketing, on the other extreme is what I call traffic marketing. And the extreme of relationship marketing is going to be your referrals. Right.        


Somebody who hears about you, comes and buys something from you. The extreme of your traffic marketing. I always used Bed, Bath and Beyond. I’m going to have to come up with a new example; pummeling you with coupons in your inbox all day long.        


And there’s nothing wrong with either of those. But what people screw up is that when their business may not be in alignment with one of those types of marketing. So when I’m thinking about relationship marketing, I’m thinking about that entire I call it the left side of the continuum between extreme relationship marketing and kind of that center point where relationships turns a little trafficky. And for those folks who have service based businesses, who have businesses where we are looking, frankly, for quality over quantity of leads and how to make that happen and how to demagnetize from a world of just relying on referrals and having no idea where they’re going to come, but not then going all the way over to traffic because you have no idea what else to do. But how can you manufacture the quality of lead that a referral is but be a little bit more in control of those coming in?        


Oh my gosh. We are literally in the same pool because it’s just like the exact kind of conversations that I have with people and I love the distinction. I often refer to relational versus transactional, but I love this idea of traffic because transactional does maybe have a little bit of judgment in it for those who are relationship people, but it is something that is more math based or repetition. As you said, traffic leveraging the power of the internet. So tell me a little bit more about I love this idea of just finding high quality leads, people who would be a great fit for your business that is not just totally related to referrals.        


It’s weird. I’ve been in business 27 years and I kind of play a game with myself because there can be certain days where I’m like, this is it, 27 years in like you’re just not going to get that referral. But magically it seems like it happens. So how do you talk to your clients about it? And for people, I think probably most of my listeners who are more in that relational side, how can we begin to build a friendlier relationship with some traffic side of the business?        


Absolutely. So I think about it. Number one, this is where networking comes into play. Because when I break down marketing, I think of it in terms of awareness, engagement, sales; people need to know you exist, then they need to engage with you, understand your material, and then they need to buy something from you.        


And when you’re in a referral business, that awareness comes from somebody actually saying you should go buy something from this person. They’re fantastic. But you can actually engineer that awareness moment to happen with that same kind of trust transfer and that same kind of energy. Because when you get a referral, the person is saying go do this. There’s a trust transfer that happens.        


Right. And so the sales process is much easier. I call it like a snowball running downhill. If that awareness moment has high impact, then engagement in sales don’t have to be that hard. You don’t have to try that hard.        


Right. Whereas in a traffic funnel you’re like trying to get a boulder uphill and you’re trying really hard at that sales moment. So what you can do is you can look at the characteristics of the people who are referring to you, and you can go meet those people intentionally, and you can go look for people who fit the characteristic of someone who would refer to you and stop thinking about having a conversation about, hey, will you send me a client? When you happen to run into someone or just hoping that they will send you a client and instead you’re looking and you’re saying, how can we have a win-win here? Does this person run a mastermind?        


Can I go teach to their folks? I will use our mutual friend Sarah Peck as an example. I go in and I teach her audience her program a couple of times a year and that is for me. I could just wait for Sarah to send me folks. She does occasionally.        


Or I can go and say, hey Sarah, can I help your crew by coming in and teaching a concept? She says yes, and then you have a little bit more control over the activities that you are taking part in over the course of the year that you know will result in business. But that magical moment at awareness of the trust transfer happening, you’re still getting the benefit of that referral, if you will. And that trust transfer, which is what a referral actually is. It’s so helpful.        


I called it in The Widest Net, I call them peanut butter and jelly partners, where they’re people who have a highly complimentary but non competitive service. Say that exact phrase all the time. Yes.        


One example, I do a lot of work as an agency of building licensing and certification programs. And so Autumn Witt Boyd is one IP attorney that I’m doing a webinar with. I also work a lot with Ruth Carter, who’s another IP attorney. And I love what you’re saying. I was laughing inside when you mentioned that throwaway phrase like, hey, if you happen to in your travels, run across somebody who you think would be a good fit.        


I mean, there’s nothing wrong with saying that. I know I have literally said that sometimes to people. But we forget. I know I forget. I forget amazing resources all the time because I have a memory like a goldfish that my children tell me.        


And so doing things that, part of the benefit is as I think about that example for you teaching at Startup Parent, first of all, you’re engaging in a totally different way in collaboration with Sarah in the community. And then also that content can be something that is recorded and continually shared, I imagine, for new people who are coming into the community. So with this trust transfer, another sticky concept I love before you really know somebody, like, where do you see that starting from that first point in which you’re connecting with somebody and then what do they need to know in order to invite you to do something like give a class in their community? Yeah, great question. So this is where people roll their eyes at me because the same way we have an ideal client avatar, which can be a really painful experience to build your first time, guess what?        


You have ideal connection avatars as well. And you can build a profile of the folks who have parallel but not competitive services to yours. I call it borrowing audiences. Go look at who has an audience of the folks that you can serve in non competitive ways and then that is who you want to build your network around. I think networking has such a bad name because it’s basically the equivalent of cold calling.        


Like, we’re constantly trying to meet our direct clients from it, and then you’re just starting from scratch all the time and it’s uncomfortable conversations and it’s no good if you know who that ideal connection avatar is, we can talk about it. I have a couple of different ways to meet these folks, but first you gotta be clear on who they are. And then you have a profile and there’s thousands of them to pick from and so you can go and start finding where are those win-win opportunities of someone who will have you on their podcast, have you to guest teach, do all of these different things that you can do in a collaborative win-win way?        


Is there a particular structure that you look for in the avatar? Are there different types that you categorize? I’m just curious how you codify that. Yes, step one is a do they have your audience grouped in some way? Do they own your audience in some way that can be shareable, but that’s very transactional step. Then I believe in keeping the same people in my network over time so that it’s consistent and so that you can have multiplicatives. I can never say that word.        


Multiplying effects where it gets better over time. Right, so you want to keep the same people in your network and so you actually have to have things in common. So when I’m looking at that ideal connection avatar, I am looking at number one, do they have my audience? Number two, do they sell and share the same business ethics that I do? Because if somebody has your audience but you sell in totally different styles, guess what?        


You’re not going to have audiences that are compatible. And then I’m just looking at do I want to be friends with these people? Do I want to have a drink with them when we run into each other? Do I want to talk about their kids or their dogs or their whatevers, where we can actually build a foundation of friendship that lasts 5,10, 20 years and our businesses grow together. So those are the different things I’m looking at when I’m looking at that ideal connection avatar.        


It starts with they have my audience but then there’s a bunch of filtering questions that come in after that. I love that. Okay, so you can begin to know what you are looking for and it’s so helpful. It may seem obvious, but you and I know it’s not obvious to many people when they think of networking. It’s often just me getting in front of, awkwardly, somebody who I would actually want to work with me and that just does feel really weird as opposed to supporting the business of somebody else who cares as much as we do about our ideal clients.        


So when you know that and you have that as a networking avatar, then what are the ways that you recommend to do those initial connections? So, there’s three of them that I have. Number one is the obvious: if you have someone mutually in common and who can make an introduction, that’s a fantastic way to make it happen. We’re not always in that position though, right? So number two, and this is actually how I built an eight figure tech startup back in the day, was you can have a platform of your own that you can share with them.        


So my example was I was in a situation where I was having trouble getting my business off the ground, but I had a media play and I could book any keynote that I wanted, but I was having struggles connecting with local governments and that’s what I needed to connect with. And they won’t take my phone call, but I could get any keynote in the country. I started turning down keynotes and asking for a panel instead. And I invited all those folks who wouldn’t take my sales call. I said, Come, I’m going to give you a platform.        


Come share your story at this high profile conference. They all came, and guess what? Then they were all very happy to talk about being my customer, talk about connecting me to the people I needed to be connected to. So if you have a platform, if you have a podcast, if you have a blog, if you have an email list, if you have anything, how can you share that platform and use that as an excuse, frankly, to reach out and invite someone to come in as a way of getting introduced? The third way that I see working is a genuine thank you note and a specific thank you note, by which I mean I see a lot of people trying to connect with folks, especially those who are sharing their work publicly, will see comments on LinkedIn, Instagram, wherever, where they’re just like, thanks, needed to hear that today.        


And they think the person is somehow going to connect with that. That’s not going to happen. But what can happen is if you send that person a note or put a comment that says, thank you for what you shared in your podcast two weeks ago, you said this very specific thing, I took that, I implemented it, or I’ve been thinking about it, and here’s what I’m going to do with that information. You know this. You don’t share your information publicly for your own health or you want to actually help people.        


And so if somebody is taking your information and they are telling you specifically what it meant to them and what they did with it, you are going to hear that. And that’s the start of a relationship. I’m not going to say that there’s going to be a big collaboration plan the next day, but that can get you in, right? And that gives you a chance to see what might come next. That’s so smart.        


I love that. And I have really found that to be a great for your second example of how it is that you’re just putting yourself in the path of people. The criteria is you already know they’re aligned with your values. They share an audience that you care about. So, again, for the highly relational people, it sounds a bit transactional.        


It’s almost like orchestrating bumping into somebody in the elevator, like, fancy meeting you here, Michelle, even though maybe I carefully planned to see you there. But I think from a mindset perspective, it just does make me think that for me anyway, and for a lot of my clients, it’s always in service of serving the kinds of people who you really care about serving. And when you do recognize somebody who you just know or you think you know, and you’ll learn once you get to know them better, that really would be a good fit. Why not put the odds in your favor? Yeah.        


And I would also challenge folks with mindset. I moved to a small town a few years ago, so I know all about trying to meet people and putting yourself in situations. So I have two examples for this. Number one, when I moved to this town, you best believe I looked around at the different groups of people who I thought could be my friends and figured out how can I insert myself into those places? Because I want to build relationships, right?        


And sometimes you have to do something that feels a little unnatural as the first step to building a relationship. And so if there’s a little planning in it, I don’t think that that’s actually transactional because you’re not out the door the next day. You are looking for someone for whom you want to have an ongoing relationship with. And so, yeah, sometimes it does have to be a little engineered. The other things I say is look at how you manage your family and friend relationships.        


I am guessing everybody has a birthday calendar of some sort or something that you do to make sure you have a system so that you’re not forgetting the important things with the people who you have relationships with in your personal life. And this is kind of the same thing. We need systems around us that actually honors the relationship, right. Because you are putting a system into your busy life to make sure you don’t forget about these people. And so, yeah, it’s a transactional piece that has a backing of being transactional because you want to honor the relationship and not blow it off and not forget about it and not actually be transactional when you are with the person.        


I really like that. I believe very much in systems. It’s a lot of what I teach in tiny marketing actions. It’s just where you have habits, you have systems that really support the actions that you want to take and it helps you to be consistent in the way that you want to be and not trying to carry everything in your mind. So that’s really I think it’s a wonderful way to think about it.        


I forgot my best friend’s birthday. We’ve been best friends for 39 years and probably the first 29 until Facebook told me just because I don’t happen to naturally be that person, we both laugh about it. It wasn’t a big deal to me or her, but it is a good example of learning the kinds of things to reinforce the behaviors that you want to take. Yeah, there’s one part of more the traffic side of business, as you said, or the transactional side of business that a lot of my clients struggle with, which is navigating the relational and transactional parts of email marketing. And some people can feel like it is not relational to be sending one to many emails and so this can be in support of a book launching or selling a program, things like that.        


How do you see email marketing fitting into relational marketing? Yeah, well, step one is that not everything has to be relational marketing. There is a place and a time for mass marketing and if your business is in alignment with mass marketing, please go do that. I’m more talking to the half or more of businesses where it’s not natural, but they normally go over to traffic marketing because it’s all we see taught when you are in a relational marketing business. Listen, I have an email list.        


I email them all the time. I email them offers too. I think of it more though, as a logistical tool to move people between the relationship moments in my funnel, by which I mean every month I have a live Q and A where people can come hang out with me, ask any questions that they’re confused about, that I build a relationship there. Now I email them and remind them to sign up for that. I email them and follow ups to that and recordings to that.        


I then email them offers after that. But the email is a logistical, not a strategic step in that I am not asking my email list to do all the lifting of selling my stuff because I understand that I have a relationship funnel. And so the actual selling mechanisms that I know are going to close people even if they click on a link in an email to actually buy they’ve previously been closed and by another means those are more relationship based and then the email just supports that. But that’s a match for my business.        


Again, like if you’re selling $25 products, you probably have a traffic business and that’s okay too. Yeah, I love that. I love the way that you think about it in just the way that you are framing the activities and looking at this relationship. I agree with you. Between being somebody who really does enjoy building relationships, it depends on the nature of the business that you have.        


There can be some folks who are consultants or freelance specialists who could have one client a year to give them all the money they could ever imagine, right. Or five. So you don’t necessarily have to have lots and lots of clients. But what I love about I know in my own case, I think I’ve had my newsletter before my son was born, he just turned 18, so 19 years. I started my newsletter before anything else, my blog or my first podcast at Escape From Cubicle Nation.        


And so, after all these years, first of all, it’s something I really look forward to writing. And I have many people who have been on the list for a really, really long time that I think have more of that personal connection. Like, I’m excited to hear from Pam. I usually share a little something personal of what’s going on and then go into a main article, I feature my clients, things like that. But it is what makes me feel comfortable with that connection.        


And I know that there’s no way I could be following up individually with all the people who are there. And I think over the years, part of where my own personal discomfort was with it was when I had a program and I would notice, I would get anxious when I knew that I had to be providing more emails. Now, the way that I’ve flipped it, like for Tiny Marketing Actions, a class I teach usually a couple of times a year, I will do. I call it a celebration of the class that’s coming up. And so I challenge myself to create five new tiny marketing actions every time a new cohort launches. So I’ll do tip one of five that’s always new.        


And I do get feedback from people saying, thank you for this, this is a new one. So I have created meaning for myself where I feel like I’m providing something valuable. But I do recognize that people need more reminders. And I have learned so many times over, both in my business and my clients, that people need that. Like classes closing tomorrow.        


I don’t know about you, I literally get 50% of my participants the last day. I’m like, you all are killing me.        


And what I hear there, I think it’s all in definitions and how we frame it and your perspective. What I hear there is that the first few emails or the general email that happens all the time from you is a relationship tactic, right? Yes. And so that’s building relationships. And then probably the first couple of the launch, the celebration emails, those are relationship building as well.        


But then there are some traffic emails as well. And that’s just how your business has built up as well. And that makes total sense. But you’re clear on the job of both of those things. And that is what we need to be clear on is if we’re building a relationship, is this building the relationship or is this just a tactical transactional thing that has to happen because people are busy and miss emails.        


And it’s fine to have some of those, don’t forget the deadlines today, please send those. But it’s still built on the backbone of a lot of relationship emails. That makes sense to me. Yeah, I love that. I love the way you think about it.        


You have a program called Networking That Pays, which is really intriguing. I always love a method in a system. It’s a big part of the way I think about things, and it appears to me that it is an evergreen program, meaning this is something that you continually have open and available. So I’m curious really, the promise of that as you talk about it is just five minutes a day where people can go in there and get support for doing networking effectively. Bring us into your methodology, like what’s in that program and how does it work for your clients?        


Yeah, so it’s getting back to what I was talking about earlier. It’s half science and half implementation. So when I was in grad school, I never knew this, but I was in business school. I took two semesters of Network Science. Did you know that people built careers off of how networks interact with each other?        


I had no idea. And I took these classes on a total lark. I had to fill my schedule. But then when I had that startup and I couldn’t figure out how to sell anything, I thought back to those classes because my background at the time was in mass marketing and I knew I had to do something relationship based. And so I put this system together for myself.        


So the first half of the course is teaching you what of that science you need to know, by which I mean there is a thing called Dunbar’s Number which says you can only have 150 actual relationships in your life at any one time, and a slice of those are going to be business. So let’s stop thinking of your number as your entire LinkedIn following, and instead let’s talk about who of that 150 are actually going to be business connections. And then let’s talk about what that Ideal Connection Avatar should be so you know who to fill in your 150, what do those people need to look like, and we just talk about getting really clear on what the network needs to look like. So you’re not just out there doing connection calls and trading business cards with whomever so that’s the first half of the class is getting clear on all that. Then the second half is a daily five minute system.        


I have a theme for every day, and I’ve followed this for 15 years. On Monday, you send a thank you note to someone in your network. On Tuesday, you do something that spirits connection. So either you are asking for a connection for yourself or you are connecting two people in your network when it makes sense. You’re not forcing it, but you’re connecting people who would benefit from knowing each other.        


Thursday, you are asking for something. And this is to build our “ask” muscles, because a lot of people are not comfortable asking on Thursday is not about asking for a client or asking for big things, but it’s learning how to deepen relationships by asking for things, because the people in our network actually do want to help us. So how can you ask for easy, quick things that will deepen the relationship and can lead to the collaboration? And Friday is just catch ups. On Friday, I talk about my dog and share dog stories and share whatever is going on in life and just connect with people.        


And then on Wednesday is a build day. And that’s a little bit of a different theme because on Wednesday you choose one of the other themes and you stretch your network a little bit because while you have that network of 150 that we want to be as consistent as possible, people leave their businesses, there’s always going to be some changeover. And I’m a firm believer that your business is going to be the sum of the quality of your network. And so you always want to be pushing yourself and reaching someone who’s maybe a little higher, a little intimidating, something that is going to build the quality of your network. So how can we use a thank you, a connection, an ask or a catch up in order to stretch ourselves and kind of keep the network fresh with somebody new?        


That’s so smart. And I’m sure it’s so helpful for people who participate because most people are like, don’t make me think, just give me something very concrete to do. Which, again, is so much in harmony with what I believe about Tiny Marketing Actions. It’s just more of the habit of what it is that you’re doing. In this case, really specifically looking to be building your network.        


I love that. Yeah. And I’m also realistic, I always say if you can’t do all five days, like, “Stop, Drop and Thank you”. And I teach a bunch of different ways to send a very simple thank you and very specific thank you. That goes a long way.        


And if that’s all you’re doing, your network is still going to build and a lot of opportunities are going to come your way. You’re just remembering to thank people. It’s the networking equivalent of your gratitude journal. It’s so important. I had this random but lovely note the other day from somebody who was in medical school or not to be a doctor, but I think a physician’s assistant, and he had inadvertently purchased my audiobook body of work, thinking it was the recommended body of work for some medical book.        


He was like, I started to listen to it and I realized right away it was not the wrong one, but I couldn’t stop listening. And it actually was super valuable and it was the most kind, wonderful, generous kind of note and it made my entire day and of course, I had to share it with others. It was so lovely. But you can’t underestimate, I think, the example, as you said, of demonstrating sincere gratitude where you really are choosing somebody whose work you really admire.       


It harkens back to something you had said earlier about how it is that you’re reaching out and maybe letting somebody know specifically, like, what their advice meant. A good friend of mine, Ramit Sethi, who just has a Netflix special now about how to be rich. We’ve been friends for years, and many years ago, early on in blogging, we had spent some time together, and he was reviewing things in my business and gave me some advice. And then a year later, at the end of the year, I circled back around with him and I said, I just wanted you to know you had talked to me about this, this, and this. This is what I did.        


This was the result. This was the dollar amount. I missed my goal. It was, I don’t know, $10,000 or something. And here’s why.        


And he responded back, and he was like, you do not realize how few people ever take the time to do that. And he was so grateful for it. I was so grateful that he spent time with me because I really value his insight. But that is an example that demonstrates that you’re really connected with somebody’s work. And it feels good, too.        


It feels good to recognize something that somebody does that helps you. And I think that is such a perfect example. You couldn’t have teed it up for me better. I have this ridiculous dog that needs 3 hours of walking a day. So I’m always relating stories to that.        


And I always figure everything out while I’m walking him. And I tell people, like, when I’m walking him, I will remember something a friend told me. It’ll just be this little blip that maybe they mentioned a year ago. And I will have a realization of where that little blip they said has gotten me after a year. And so I will get home and, “Stop, Drop and Thank you!”.       


I will just send them a quick note, even if it’s a quick text note, to say, oh, my gosh, you said this to me nine months ago, by the way. This is what has happened. And those that build relationships doesn’t only have to be with public people. I love that example.       


You should absolutely do that as well for someone who’s more public. But this is how you build and deepen relationships with colleagues and friends as well, is just when we all have those moments every day where you remember something that someone said. And if you can translate 50% of those into an actual thank you note to them, that’s really powerful and just spreads a lot of good gratitude and a lot of goodwill in a lot of directions. That’s so neat. Well, another thing that struck me when I was looking at networking at that pace is it seems like you do work with a lot of introverts, as I do.        


I happen to be a raging extrovert, but one of the only ones in my world and you mentioned how there is an optimal connection number. Maybe it’s in the context of the Dunbar number, but how might it look different? I used to call it your wingspan. So I say, for me, I do have quite a large wingspan just for my tolerance for connection, being able. I forget everybody’s names, but as soon as I see them and remember their name, I can hold a lot more than some of my introverted friends and colleagues.        


So how do you determine that optimal connection number? Well, this is something I say, I’m so glad you asked this question. I’m a raging introvert. I hide in the bathrooms at public events. I hide at the bar.        


I leave early. And so I actually created this system for myself because it made connection possible. And I think you’re going to have a really tough time in business if you can’t make connection possible. So this was at the heart of it. It was originally for introverts, and for my introverts, I’m like, if you have two, five, or ten of the perfect people that you have never had in your pocket before, that’s going to make a massive, massive impact if you’re an introvert, right.        


Because it hasn’t even been possible for you before in many cases. And so I talk a lot to them about what is the ideal connection number. Yeah, we can look at what that is in the ideal context of Dunbar’s number, and we will. But if you’re starting with five or ten or even two, your business will change. And I see that over and over again.        


What’s fascinating and I never expected is the impact it also has on extroverts. Because you guys oh, my goodness. I say this kindly, but the time you waste connecting with everyone and anyone right. And just the energy that goes out into the universe that is so beautiful but is also burnout and really waste that time. We can get you into that system where you are maximizing your whole 150, but they’re the right 150 and you’re kind of gracefully letting everyone else go.        


And you know how to say no to other things and you’re staying focused. Wow. The results I see from extroverts being able to pull it off as well. So that has been a surprise. And it’s really cool to me because it makes it doable for introverts.        


And I just think it’s a necessary skill you have to build as an introvert and your life can change and then extroverts, it just optimizes and maximizes and makes that extroversion even more of a superpower because you have a place for that energy to go. It makes a lot of sense to me. I do notice that the older I get, I just have more of a desire for deeper conversations. And like you said, it gets more precise about the importance of getting my work in the right hands and growing a business for two kids about to go to college, things like that. But I’m really just taking home this idea of a finite number of people.        


I mean, it’s just so striking. I know it should be obvious given the nature of what I do, but just in the way that you’re describing it, where we’re really clear on the number. And then also thinking of networking in terms more of peanut butter and jelly partners, as opposed to thinking about networking, of just circling in a room, trolling for clients. I have never known anybody who ever wants to do that. We talk so much about clarity and intention in building businesses, and then that to go straight out the door.        


As soon as networking hits the tide, for some reason, we just go insert ourselves into audiences and hope we somehow get lucky. And there can be so much clarity and intention around what you’re doing. That’s beautiful. Well, for people who want to get to know you better, where is the best place for them to find you? And then what is your preferred way to connect with folks?        


Yeah, so you won’t see me posting on social media a lot, but I spend a lot of time in direct messages. So if you are on Instagram or on LinkedIn, you can find me there, send me a message, send me a thank you note if this was helpful for you, and I would love to connect in that way. You can also find me on my website There’s a Michelle Warner in Kansas holding the regular URL hostage. So there’s the “the” in front of it, and you can see everything about networking that pays.        


There’s a free training on there if you’re intrigued, and you can check it all out there. And there’s obviously a connection bar there as well. If you want to reach out to me directly, that’s wonderful. Well, I appreciate that. And hopefully you said Michelle Warner.        


If you’re listening, give it up. Give it up. Give up the URL. Well, thank you so much for sharing time with us today. I really appreciate it.        


Yeah, thanks so much for having me. For those of you that are listening, make sure to check out the show notes at for the tips and resources that were mentioned today. I want to thank my 31 Marketplace production team La’Vista Jones, Tanika Lothery, Jose Arboleda, and the award winning narrator Andia Winslow. Until next time, be sure to subscribe to the show and continue to learn how to grow your world changing work through partnerships, relationships, and community building.    

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